Curse

upier · Jul 20, 2009, 08:41 PM // 20:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Bad players absolutely do matter. Your average player really isn't all that good, and most players have a game experience similar to said average player. Purely from a number's perspective, what the better players run and the skills they use to take advantage of their experience doesn't matter all that much because to a majority of players that advice is not useful or otherwise irrelevant to their play experience.

Most of the game needs to be designed to be accessible to average players running average bars with average teammates and average strategy and tactics. Seeing that most players are playing average bars that don't have the capacity for significantly above average play should not be surprising - the player is average! Most players have not been playing a character steadily for the last 4 years. I would wager that most of the players you encounter in PvE have not been playing the game all that long, or play very casually. They're discovering the game organically the same way people did originally, and handing those players a bar that's been optimized over the years for use with tactics that they have never been exposed to is not going to end well; they'd probably conclude that you don't know what you're talking about because their heal bar is so much more effective for the level they are at!

I think there's a huge disconnect with reality over where players are at; there's a wide spectrum of ability, talent, and experience in the player base, and it's destructive to pretend that everyone's the same or that advice is one-size fits all. Yes, a lot of players are bad - so if you want to be constructive, figure out the advice to give them to be more successful at their level, and what they'll need to do to get better. Calling them names for not having the experience or developing aptitude with powerful skills, or dismissing them as irrelevant because they haven't, is sophomoric ego-stroking that does nothing to move the level of the game forward.

I rather meant that bad players can not matter when discussing what are the best options when it comes to builds.
The best builds will enable the best players to perform at their best. And the fact that a build of choice enables a bad player to not suck as they should, really isn't important. Because a good player will still be able to perform on a higher level and that's the peak we are looking for.
And this thread is seeking the best option rather than just what works. Thus bad players don't matter.

But to point out something that a number of players might not get from your post - if a healing build enables the player of choice to perform better than they would with a hybrid - that means that not only they should accept the fact that they are bad, it also means that people who are able to differentiate between good and bad players will recognize that player as a bad one.
And that's the problem here - people will refuse to accept that they are bad, or better yet, that they still have much to learn. While that isn't an issue if the player regards GW as a virtual dollhouse, it is an issue if the player strives to be as good as they can be. Because that's a realistic assessment of their shape and if they aren't willing to accept it - it's going to be really hard, if not impossible, to improve. (And when you have players that are searching for the best possible option - you probably don't have Barbie players, so pointing out that something is sub-par pretty much is a necessity of such a thread.)

I Angra I · Jul 20, 2009, 08:51 PM // 20:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

What you say about not "needing" skills is interesting. As a monk i like to challenge myself to make mine, and my hero's builds the most efficient i can. So i don't look at a hero MM bar with prot spirit on it and think:
"oh ok, don't need to take PS then, MM has it"

I think:
"well, i can definitely use prot spirit better than that hero, so I'M going to take it, what should i take instead on the hero?"

you base most of your opinion on the assumption that people take the sabway/discord builds and think "what can i take to help it" and don't take their own builds and think "what don't the heros need when i am playing this bar?"

for instance. sabway was made to be played by a damage profession, and designed to be used in conjunction with one or two healer henchmen. As a monk, i usually replace the N/Rt healer with something else (nuker, tank, BHA, etc) because i am filling the role.

I understand what you're saying, but in my case, hero's builds are decided AFTER my build.

I understand what you're saying and it makes sense. We probably just have a bit different ideas of what we're trying to do. Myself more playing gvg and doing pve as a side thing (a lot of the time not on a monk to begin with) I always try to just use super efficient and fast hero builds that make my job as easy as possible for going through everything, at the cost of maybe some efficiency out of skills that I could probably use better myself. Even when doing monk in pve I tend to just do an roj smiter or something and leave the rest to heroes. But that's personal preference. ;p

paranon · Jul 20, 2009, 09:00 PM // 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I rather meant that bad players can not matter when discussing what are the best options when it comes to builds.
The best builds will enable the best players to perform at their best. And the fact that a build of choice enables a bad player to not suck as they should, really isn't important. Because a good player will still be able to perform on a higher level and that's the peak we are looking for.
And this thread is seeking the best option rather than just what works. Thus bad players don't matter.

But to point out something that a number of players might not get from your post - if a healing build enables the player of choice to perform better than they would with a hybrid - that means that not only they should accept the fact that they are bad, it also means that people who are able to differentiate between good and bad players will recognize that player as a bad one.
And that's the problem here - people will refuse to accept that they are bad, or better yet, that they still have much to learn. While that isn't an issue if the player regards GW as a virtual dollhouse, it is an issue if the player strives to be as good as they can be. Because that's a realistic assessment of their shape and if they aren't willing to accept it - it's going to be really hard, if not impossible, to improve. (And when you have players that are searching for the best possible option - you probably don't have Barbie players, so pointing out that something is sub-par pretty much is a necessity of such a thread.)

Good point, well made. people need to accept that they are bad before they can learn. I have played guild wars for 48 months, and had monk as my main for 44 months, i like to think that i know most of what there is to know about monking, but i don't for one second think i know anything about other classes in comparison to some of the people in my guild and some of the people on these forums.

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

I understand what you're saying and it makes sense. We probably just have a bit different ideas of what we're trying to do. Myself more playing gvg and doing pve as a side thing (a lot of the time not on a monk to begin with) I always try to just use super efficient and fast hero builds that make my job as easy as possible for going through everything, at the cost of maybe some efficiency out of skills that I could probably use better myself. Even when doing monk in pve I tend to just do an roj smiter or something and leave the rest to heroes. But that's personal preference. ;p

I understand what you say as well. However i think we have different views on pve. You play pvp mainly, and just use pve as something to do to keep yourself occupied while not gvging. Althougn i have done pvp in the past, i am mainly a pve'er and therefore, all my enjoyment of the game has to come from that, so i don't want to spend my entire time finding the "easy" way of doing things, i like to challenge myself by making my job hard and trying to squeeze the most out of the resources available to me (32 skill slots). Even if trying to squeeze this level of efficiency out of you and your heros isn't necessary even in high level pve, if i am not challenging my self to find new ways of doing things, and to do things faster than previously, then i will get bored very soon.

Smarty · Jul 21, 2009, 12:05 AM // 00:05

I don't care about monk bars, I care about monk skills. One skill in particular. Resurrect. I RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing hate that skill and it seems every dumbass motherRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOer in the game is using it at the moment.

"Spell. Resurrect target party member. Target party member is returned to life with 25% Health and zero Energy." 10e 5s 8r

How the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO can people not see that this is the most godawful res in the game?! 5 seconds to put someone right back in the middle of the action on 25% health, and if it's a monk they ressed, with 0 energy to heal themselves or anyone else, so they promptly die again. Good RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing game!!!

I've taken to insisting that people ping their bars when I'm pugging zquests, and quitting the team if anyone has it. In my last alliance it was the average player's res of choice and I was banging my head against a brick wall trying to get through to them that no res is better than this res. People who bring it are party wipes waiting to happen and should be avoided like the plague.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

(I feel much better now, thankyou for listening.)

YunSooJin · Jul 21, 2009, 12:38 AM // 00:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I think there's a huge disconnect with reality over where players are at; there's a wide spectrum of ability, talent, and experience in the player base, and it's destructive to pretend that everyone's the same or that advice is one-size fits all. Yes, a lot of players are bad - so if you want to be constructive, figure out the advice to give them to be more successful at their level, and what they'll need to do to get better. Calling them names for not having the experience or developing aptitude with powerful skills, or dismissing them as irrelevant because they haven't, is sophomoric ego-stroking that does nothing to move the level of the game forward.

The thread has evolved for me somewhat, because I was initially just completely frustrated at not that player bars were bad, but because they were all bad down to a couple core skills.

HP/HB/GoLE

The playerbase as a whole does not take to advice very well, the attitude that they are the monk and therefore you should mind your own business is expressed often, both here and in game. My issue has turned from 'why are these bars all bad the same way?' to 'How do we kill the source of this idiocy?'. Players are obviously being influenced by pvxwiki at least, and not really attempting to deviate from what is given there. If you're going to use a HB bar, there are better ways than what is being shown there. I guess my problem now is, how do you stand in the way of something like pvxwiki, especially when it is endorsing a poor build?

edit: oh, and seed of life.. ugh

Burst Cancel · Jul 21, 2009, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

... it's destructive to pretend that everyone's the same or that advice is one-size fits all. Yes, a lot of players are bad - so if you want to be constructive, figure out the advice to give them to be more successful at their level, and what they'll need to do to get better.

(emphasis added)

I don't really see that either of those attitudes are prevalent in GW, particularly in PvE or casual PvP. Most people apparently don't care at all about getting better, as opposed to simply beating the game or farming shiny things. Similarly, most people are not at all interested in helping other people get better; not surprising, given the above attitude.

I didn't come into this thread expecting anything constructive at all. To me, it was clear that it was simply made to blow off steam and wonder, somewhat rhetorically, how this sort of idiocy could manage to persist for four years. Nearly everyone who posted in this thread was spoiling for a fight, so I can't say that any of the egotism or posturing was surprising - or even out of place.

maxxfury · Jul 21, 2009, 01:24 AM // 01:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burst Cancel

I didn't come into this thread expecting anything constructive at all. Nearly everyone who posted in this thread was spoiling for a fight, so I can't say that any of the egotism or posturing was surprising - or even out of place.

Guru + fights are almost always funny :P especially when people go on one of those mad rantings :P Its even more fun to provoke them! (ofc we NEVER do this!) and its always obvious as the responses that will be given and recieved! and the attitudes that people will have!:P

:sienote: AP monks are more than viable

weather you run the fun bar with GDW i posted earlier(which i mayhave neglected to post "NORMAL MODE" with/.:P or a more serious AP-boonprot, for harder hitting scenarios!

depends if you favour 2x hybrid or 1xhybrid + 1xprot I wont back down on AP been a solid prot bar elite

Been able to solo an aegis chain, and cast free prots, and spam 5e prot spirits IS a good option!

_Nihilist_ · Jul 21, 2009, 01:29 AM // 01:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Smartypants

-snip-

I c wut u did thar!

Seriously, I wish that the way you explained why you don't like Resurrect was more prevalent when others explained why they like or don't like skills. Of course, players should already know what the skills do if they are using them, but sometimes people just don't pay attention...

Ensign · Jul 21, 2009, 02:23 AM // 02:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

I rather meant that bad players can not matter when discussing what are the best options when it comes to builds.
The best builds will enable the best players to perform at their best.

Well, ok, you can define things that way; however:

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And this thread is seeking the best option rather than just what works. Thus bad players don't matter.

Are you really approaching this with such a sense of ability that you'd label yourself as one of the best players, in a largely non-competitive game type with no concrete evidence to support that assertion? What would make you think that this thread is a collection of the best players talking about the cutting edge of build technology? I find this sort of statement to be missing the point on such a fundamental level that you really need to back up and re-evaluate how you're going about things.

What the best players do and what skills they use are only personally useful in as much as they give you ideas for where you can improve, how you can elevate your game. Depending on the magnitude of the skill gap, it may or may not make sense to copy the build wholesale and try to pick it up on the fly. If the gap is too large there are just too many assumptions being made that you do not understand, and will have to work through piece by piece.

For example, a few posts back I said that spot condition and hex removal is not very good in most of EotN and Nightfall PvE. I was making some important implicit assumptions about how I play, and how people reading that would play. Two years ago, I would have argued that spot removal was still amazing, because my field awareness was so much higher. I used to watch mobs with key hexes or conditions, waiting for them to cast them, to cast the removal as soon as it landed; I also recognize the in-game animation for the most important hexes, conditions, and spells, and when I was more aware I would see those going on. If you can see Spiteful Spirit, Empathy, Backfire being cast, and can see it land on a target, and have a fast reaction time, then a spot removal (Veil, Cure, even Remove Hex) is amazing no matter how many hexes are flying around. You avoid spammed and cover hexes, and always hit fresh gold with every removal. But if you don't see that? If you're relying on the arrows on the party window to tell you who is getting hexed? Then there's no point in a hex heavy area.

It goes on and on like that. There are lots of different levels of awareness. Some players can recognize Empathy from its damage signature on a player's health bar. Can you? Do you know when to remove and when not to based on that? How long does it take you to notice? Does the daze animation pop out at you? If a teammate is dazed can you recognize and pull it quickly? Do you see melee mobs switch targets? If an Aatxe leaves its target and charges the backline, can you get the Prot Spirit on in time? Do your teammates spread out and prekite well enough to give you the time to recognize the target and get the Prot Spirit on in time?

I have no idea how much of this is familiar to you. I used to play at that level, and I'm sure it was not the absolute peak of potential performance. There are certainly players out there that found tricks I never did, that were able to make plays that I could not. It affected their skill choices. In PvP I have taken skills on my bar to deal with a particular *player*; even when many teams are running the same build, the plays being made would vary that wildly.

So I am speaking from going through many, many different transitions of consciousness raising when it comes to playing this game, and other games. I put a lot of emphasis on the transitions themselves. What were the consciousness raising experiences? How does that impact skill choices? How are the two inter-related? What plays can I make with what I have, what skills do I need to make different plays - and what are the other plays I might be able to make of which I am not conscious of yet?

Improvement is a process. You, as a player, are somewhere along the path of getting better; it is hard to know how far you are from the top, and impossible to know how far you are from the peak.

My point, if long winded, is that the *perspective* you have on this discussion is counterproductive. You can't possibly find the small, granular truths if you aren't even using the right lens.

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

And that's the problem here - people will refuse to accept that they are bad, or better yet, that they still have much to learn.

I agree in principle though I'm more reluctant to say it like that than I used to be. What needs to be made clear, because there is a disconnect, is that this applies to *everyone*; that drawing a line between good and bad is really just an exercise in ego stroking.

This is key, because I don't feel there is any lack of talent in players, but a lack of will, and a lack of attitude. There are tons of people who will hit a level of ability and go into ego mode; they draw the line where they are 'good', worse players are 'bad', and that's what there is to that; and will argue vehemently about anything that affects this paradigm of them being good. The people who are trainable, and stay trainable as they get better? That continue to want to get better, whatever their level, that also have the resolve to keep pushing, practicing to get better? That's exceptional, regardless of their ability at a given instant.

YunSooJin · Jul 21, 2009, 02:51 AM // 02:51

All of this talk is very informative and thought-provoking on a somewhat abstract level. However, the problem here is that the idea of the 'normal' or what people accept as good is being self-reinforced by the community and seeping out into regular levels of play. When you are pugging or playing with other random players, it is neither the time or place to begin espousing on the relative merits of a skill, particularly when players begin with an entrenched attitude. When I made this thread I made it out of frustration that I was seeing a pattern of ineffective bars that got groups killed for no good reason.

I see that people have said 'blah blah pve is easy' and I don't really disagree. However, not all groups have the skills that make PvE even more brainless (ie SY, or a TNTF paragon). I see monks that run those Bad Bars and run themselves out of energy in a short period of time. Something as simple as a shield of absorption could have prevented the party wipe, but instead, because the monks are simply copying a Bad Build out of pvxwiki, people are dying.

So back to my original question. Why are monk bars so bad 4 years into the game? Well, I guess I can now say they're bad because 1) people have historically preferred red-bar up, but I think 2) the fact that pvxwiki lists this build and even goes to endorse it is the biggest problem. The meme of the shit HB/HP/GoLE bar has spread like a rancid crotch-rotting disease all over GW and I am going to be cursed to watch groups fail over and over unless I play the monk.

maxxfury · Jul 21, 2009, 03:09 AM // 03:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

So back to my original question. Why are monk bars so bad 4 years into the game? Well, I guess I can now say they're bad because 1) people have historically preferred red-bar up, but I think 2) the fact that pvxwiki lists this build and even goes to endorse it is the biggest problem. The meme of the shit HB/HP/GoLE bar has spread like a rancid crotch-rotting disease all over GW and I am going to be cursed to watch groups fail over and over unless I play the monk.

RedBar is makes pug's happy because, they see it happening! and seeing stuff means your doin stuff!

Seeing a bar go from 10% to full in one hit is WOW!! WHAT A FRICKEN GOOD HEALER!
Wether or not a simple prot spirit would have stopped that is neither here nor there! seeing empty bars fill up is like seeing massive rocks falling on monsters heads!!.. its visible! therefor its awesome!

Now on the other hand! you dont see very much what a prot monk does! untill they mess up and a bar empties fast! and then what happens? the healers gets the praise for filling it back up! even tho the prot stopped all 7 other bars from emptying!....but didnt "show it off" to the group.

Hence REDBAR rocks peoples socks!!

Regards PVX, In the correct context a HB does work, if coupled with a prot. But doin that your leaving all your eggs in one basket and relying on NEITHER monk messing up. (note WORK in ittalics

)

Ensign · Jul 21, 2009, 03:33 AM // 03:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

So back to my original question. Why are monk bars so bad 4 years into the game?

Because the fastest route to being successful with a pick-up team is to simplify the character roles you need in your build as much as possible, and drill the community to practice on them. Getting above average players to perform a bit better is not as useful as getting your average players to perform at a necessary level as quickly and consistently as possible. This is where your BiP / Heal Party backlines come from; both characters are ridiculously easy to play, and as long as you can train some monkeys to do it you'll get what you need to complete the area. The same goes for every other role; you specialize everything, give each player exactly one job, and that's how you get your consistency.

Requiring advanced skills or multitasking necessarily requires you to have above average players in a role; if you want to be successful as often as possible with a PUG you MUST minimize that as much as possible. Training people, even to a minimal level, is hard. They're bad because it's a management decision to play people at their level and not expect more than is practical.

YunSooJin · Jul 21, 2009, 05:23 AM // 05:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Because the fastest route to being successful with a pick-up team is to simplify the character roles you need in your build as much as possible, and drill the community to practice on them. Getting above average players to perform a bit better is not as useful as getting your average players to perform at a necessary level as quickly and consistently as possible. This is where your BiP / Heal Party backlines come from; both characters are ridiculously easy to play, and as long as you can train some monkeys to do it you'll get what you need to complete the area. The same goes for every other role; you specialize everything, give each player exactly one job, and that's how you get your consistency.

Requiring advanced skills or multitasking necessarily requires you to have above average players in a role; if you want to be successful as often as possible with a PUG you MUST minimize that as much as possible. Training people, even to a minimal level, is hard. They're bad because it's a management decision to play people at their level and not expect more than is practical.

So we're RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed

Lishy · Jul 21, 2009, 06:56 AM // 06:56

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed from forcing other players to play how you see fit?

Why not start a new trend of protting instead of complaining?

paranon · Jul 21, 2009, 07:57 AM // 07:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

The thread has evolved for me somewhat, because I was initially just completely frustrated at not that player bars were bad, but because they were all bad down to a couple core skills.

HP/HB/GoLE

The playerbase as a whole does not take to advice very well, the attitude that they are the monk and therefore you should mind your own business is expressed often, both here and in game. My issue has turned from 'why are these bars all bad the same way?' to 'How do we kill the source of this idiocy?'. Players are obviously being influenced by pvxwiki at least, and not really attempting to deviate from what is given there. If you're going to use a HB bar, there are better ways than what is being shown there. I guess my problem now is, how do you stand in the way of something like pvxwiki, especially when it is endorsing a poor build?

edit: oh, and seed of life.. ugh

I think, maybe, you miss how pvx works. i'm no expert, but i think that players post the builds, they are tested, discussed and rated by players and then when they have been tested, discussed and rated they are either deleted, or posted into "great" "good" or "other". how the hell that godawful hb build got into "great" I will never know. but the solution, quite obviously, is to put better builds on pvx

Avarre · Jul 21, 2009, 08:10 AM // 08:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

Why not start a new trend of protting instead of complaining?

Prot being more powerful than pure heal has been a trend among good players for something in the vicinity of the last three to four years. I'm not sure what your point is in trying to defend the right of players to run bad builds.

Yes, bad players are going to be more effective running simpler builds. Guild Wars has no system of progression in PvE however - there's no point that forces you to give up the simpler builds for a better one. So where is the incentive, or encouragement, for a no-longer-terrible player to put down the pure heal bar everyone runs and pick up woh/prot? Same situation as ever: there's no pressure to improve.

Making good builds more accessible, or better, the norm, is certainly a start.

Shrimz · Jul 21, 2009, 08:25 AM // 08:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mister Smartypants

I don't care about monk bars, I care about monk skills. One skill in particular. Resurrect. I RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing hate that skill and it seems every dumbass motherRED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOer in the game is using it at the moment.

"Spell. Resurrect target party member. Target party member is returned to life with 25% Health and zero Energy." 10e 5s 8r

How the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO can people not see that this is the most godawful res in the game?! 5 seconds to put someone right back in the middle of the action on 25% health, and if it's a monk they ressed, with 0 energy to heal themselves or anyone else, so they promptly die again. Good RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing game!!!

I've taken to insisting that people ping their bars when I'm pugging zquests, and quitting the team if anyone has it. In my last alliance it was the average player's res of choice and I was banging my head against a brick wall trying to get through to them that no res is better than this res. People who bring it are party wipes waiting to happen and should be avoided like the plague.

ARRRRRRRRRRRRRGH!

(I feel much better now, thankyou for listening.)

I'm not sure about monking, I was just reading and noticed this mishap. I like pointing things out like this.

The bolded portion suggests that Resurrect is the best res in the game, which contradicts the entire post.

Avarre · Jul 21, 2009, 08:32 AM // 08:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shrimz

I'm not sure about monking, I was just reading and noticed this mishap. I like pointing things out like this.

The bolded portion suggests that Resurrect is the best res in the game, which contradicts the entire post.

It's ambiguous language, but also has the meaning 'not bringing a res is better than this res'.

YunSooJin · Jul 21, 2009, 08:34 AM // 08:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kain Fz

RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOed from forcing other players to play how you see fit?

Why not start a new trend of protting instead of complaining?

Back in the thread? Did you learn how basic monk skills worked now? I could give you a quiz if you'd like.

edit: I don't really see how you could say I am forcing anyone to play how I see fit in any way, since in no shape or form did I ever intimate that during this entire thread.

glacialphoenix · Jul 21, 2009, 08:38 AM // 08:38

Quote:

So back to my original question. Why are monk bars so bad 4 years into the game? Well, I guess I can now say they're bad because 1) people have historically preferred red-bar up, but I think 2) the fact that pvxwiki lists this build and even goes to endorse it is the biggest problem. The meme of the shit HB/HP/GoLE bar has spread like a rancid crotch-rotting disease all over GW and I am going to be cursed to watch groups fail over and over unless I play the monk.

You realise that plenty of groups think they're invincible. (Today I had the lovely experience of watching my fellow monk leeroy, completely forget to remove hexes off me when I pinged things like Migraine (thank heavens for 40/40), and set fire to the spider eggs despite me - his fellow healer - pinging low energy and saying 'wait up'. Then he died.

Again.)

Look - your bad player is never going to blame himself. If he succeeds (despite his bar being crap), it's not because someone might have been covering his ass. It's obviously because he was awesome. If he fails, it's because everyone else sucked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

RedBar is makes pug's happy because, they see it happening! and seeing stuff means your doin stuff!

Unfortunately, this.